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On Wednesday 31/7/2002 Who has the greater sin? Summary: A moral dilemma, in the wake of George Pell's recent address to Catholic youth in Toronto: which is worse, clerical sexual abuse or abortion? Details or Transcript: Stephen Crittenden: Comments of Sydney’s Catholic Archbishop, George Pell at World Youth Day in Canada have sparked controversy this week. The Archbishop gave a speech in which he said the scandal of abortion was worse than the scandal over clerical sexual abuse in the church – comments all the more surprising for having been made at a forum for young people, attended by the ailing Pope, a forum where the number of participants was dramatically down on original expectations: just 200,000 instead of the expected 700,000. Well we thought it might be interesting to seek the views of a woman, who is not a Catholic, Anglican theologian Dr Muriel Porter, of Melbourne. Muriel is currently writing a book about the clerical sex abuse scandal. Does she think the Archbishop’s comments are dramatically out of step with community opinion, like the Governor-General’s comments were on the Australian Story program recently, or not? Muriel Porter: I think the comparison’s a fair one, at the level that it does indicate that George Pell seems still not to understand what the issue is about: why people are concerned about clergy involvement in sex abuse of children, boys, girls and women – and even more importantly, the cover-up that the church hierarchy has obviously been engaged in, not just in America, but in Australia, for quite some decades. But I think the point that there might be division over in the community: certainly, I don’t think many people like abortion – I don’t like it particularly, I’m sure – but it’s quite inappropriate, quite an inappropriate comparison to talk about the loss of a potential human life, often done for quite sound reasons that women have to make that decision, many of them I would think, quite unwillingly. To compare that with the wilful destruction of the self-esteem and future of a young person for the personal gratification and pleasure of a celibate priest, I think there’s hardly any comparison at all. Stephen Crittenden: Not to mention the fact, Muriel, that so many of these kids actually suicide. In Ireland, particularly, but also in Australia and America. Muriel Porter: Yes, there are suicides, which makes it a form of murder. But also, my investigations to date indicate that any of this sort of abuse on a young person, certainly pre-puberty, it destroys forever their possibility of building a wholesome life, without having to struggle all the time to understand the boundaries, to develop a genuine self-esteem by which they can live freely and openly, as they should be able to do. This is a sin of the very highest order. It’s not like kids getting knocked around and hurt in football or something, I don’t think some of these people in the hierarchy of the church actually understand that it is of a very different and very grave order. And to speak about it at this time, and at that place, at a youth gathering. Stephen Crittenden: Well, indeed. What about the forum in which these comments were made? One reaction I would have thought might be “Oh, how could he?” When he’s talking about the sexual abuse of young people in this particular forum, a world youth forum, where we know the numbers who turned up to that forum are dramatically down, presumably not all because parents were afraid of their kids flying after September 11th. I mean, presumably because people really are angry and they’ve stayed away. Muriel Porter: Well all the mainstream churches have got a lot of work to do to re-ignite the religious imagination of young people, and this crisis of moral responsibility and the churches over sex abuse hasn’t helped that one little bit. But to be speaking in these sort of comparative terms, in that sort of forum, seems to me at one level sort of mind-boggling: why on earth would he do it? But secondly, it has perhaps even a little tinge of defiance, it says “I know what I’m talking about, I’m not going to listen to trendy politically correct people, I’m going to get back on the bandwagon that the church abhors abortion.” I mean, he wants to get on to artificial contraception and all those other things as well. Most of these things about which the wider community has a very different view, and particularly young people. Stephen Crittenden: Finally, Muriel, I wonder whether there’s a little confusion when you think about something else that Archbishop Pell said in his speech: “Jesus offers punishment to those who stray from the church’s teachings on premarital sex, abortion, and euthanasia. It’s there, right through the Gospels”. Muriel Porter: Well, I’d like to see which version of the Gospels he’s using. It’s not in my Bible. I don’t remember Jesus saying anything about abortion, or euthanasia, or premarital sex. What I do remember Jesus saying was that anyone who harms these little ones – these children who’ve been abused, they could be certainly accepted as “little ones” in that context – they would be better off if a millstone were placed around their necks. Stephen Crittenden: Anglican theologian, Dr Muriel Porter. Guests on this program:
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